As Oliver Stone talks about Lula, his new documentary about Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, which will premiere at the Cannes Film Festival, the conversation turns to American politics. The conspiracy-minded director didn’t invariably catch a glimpse of a second gunman whenever he saw a grassy knoll, but Lula’s political tribulations, including a corruption investigation that led to a 580-day prison sentence, and draws parallels to Donald Trump’s tribulations. At that point, the film’s publicist intervened and politely tried to redirect the conversation back to the documentary. However, Stone shook him off and pushed forward.
“The accusations on both sides of the election between President Trump and President Biden are pretty far-fetched: that Biden is corrupt and that Trump is corrupt,” he says. “This is a new form of war. It’s called legal. And that’s what they’re using against Trump. And we’re seeing this kind of behavior not only here in America, but all over the world. I think there are some interesting similarities. [Trump’s] He has been tried four times, and some of the charges are minor, whether you are for him or against him. ”
Stone, who must admit he is no fan of Trump, insists that corruption has always existed throughout human history. Too much has been talked about regarding Lula. Stone did not accept claims that the Brazilian president was guilty of money laundering, noting that he lived a “modest” life. And he believes that corruption is a crime that is imposed on politicians without investigating the root causes of corruption.
“Corruption is a way of life,” Stone said. “It goes back to the Greeks, the Romans, and the Babylonians before them. Corruption has existed throughout history. So we can be Pollyanna about it and say we’re ‘clean America’ and better than anyone else.” Stop thinking you’re better. It’s really bullshit.”
Stone goes on to suggest that the more pernicious issue in politics is money. “If you’re a poor or middle-class man, it’s very difficult to run for office in the United States unless you have money and corporate sponsorship. Money controls politics in America. When you go to European countries , we see that elections are very compulsory, or so they were until recently in France, and they are required in the United States as well. Let’s withdraw the money.”
But I don’t follow Stone. What does the high cost of a presidential campaign have to do with President Trump’s legal woes? I wonder. After all, President Trump’s case includes allegations that he mishandled classified documents and obstructed efforts to retrieve those files. Illegal efforts to overturn defeat in the 2020 election. And they allege that he falsified his business records to hide his payments to adult film actresses. Mr. Stone did not directly answer that question.
“In a broad sense, it’s an office operation,” Stone says. “You’re trying to control how you’re perceived in the public eye. And if you’re going to pay for it. That’s part of the concept of corruption, right?”
Frankly, I’m perplexed. Is Stone saying that people should ignore corruption because there were crooked politicians in ancient Rome? After all, poverty, armed conflict, and other horrific events are recurring themes in human history. Shouldn’t we make efforts to reduce them?
“That’s the way it is,” Stone counters. “There’s life, there’s death, there’s corruption. But that’s the scale. You can point your finger at another country and say, that country is corrupt, you have to remove the president, or you can attack other countries or the government. It is unforgivable to say that it must end. Look, who are we to say such things when we are so deeply corrupt? [two] party. We should have multiple political parties and put public money into politics like in Poland. Or look at the British and French models. ”
But if Mr. Stone is skeptical of the case against Mr. Trump, he is a Lula convert. He believes the Brazilian leader, who served two terms as president from 2003 to 2011 before making a remarkable comeback to defeat Jair Bolsonaro in the 2022 presidential election, is a hero. He is credited with lifting millions of people out of poverty and strengthening Brazil’s social safety net.
“He had a very productive two terms as president. It was beautiful; I couldn’t have asked for a better two terms,” Stone says. He is satisfied with Lula’s approach since returning to power. “I like his fighting spirit,” Stone offers. “I love that he made it clear that we don’t have fascists in our government and that we’re going to run a clean government.”
Stone’s documentary details Lula’s fall from grace and the many twists and turns that led to his conviction being overturned. By that time, it had become clear that Judge Sergio Moro, who oversaw a major corruption investigation into the misappropriation of public funds, had improperly colluded with prosecutors to build a case against Mr. Lula, and public opinion had turned against the former president. was tilted in favor of Mr. Moro raised eyebrows even after becoming justice minister in the Bolsonaro government.
“There was significant evidence of illegal activity on the part of Moro,” Stone said. “He was like Torquemada, just overzealous for reform.”
Moro also reportedly shared information about the investigation into Lula with FBI agents and U.S. officials. Stone sees this as further evidence of U.S. interference in the region, something he says the U.S. has been doing for decades in countries like Chile and El Salvador.
“We have a terrible record of intervention in South America over many years,” Stone said. “It’s been quiet on this issue lately, but who knows what’s really going on?”
Stone does not rule out the possibility that the U.S. government played a role in the 2013 cancer death of Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez.
“He died a very mysterious death,” Stone asserts. “He had a very sudden cancer and it started quickly. If you know of any history of early cancer deaths such as: [Lee Harvey Oswald assassin] Jack Ruby, must we begin to suspect that something mysterious is going on?Indeed, many Venezuelans believe that [there was U.S. involvement]. But we don’t know that, and we can’t prove it. However, there is still a shadow. ”
Brazil’s 2022 presidential election will be a close one, but Stone makes it clear that the stakes couldn’t be higher. Bolsonaro and his right-wing forces had threatened all kinds of anti-democratic repression, but rising crime made his authoritarianism attractive to many voters. He also opened up the Amazon to more logging, mining and other industries, which, Stone argues, posed an existential threat to the environment. Mr. Lula, by contrast, promised to reduce deforestation and introduce stricter environmental controls.
“It was a very close call,” Stone said. “But Brazil has had a good democracy for a while, so I’m very happy that we were able to maintain it. When we were making this film, you could see the love for democracy on people’s faces. It was showing.”
Stone hasn’t made a feature film since 2016’s Snowden, in which Joseph Gordon-Levitt played the controversial whistleblower. Instead, he’s busy making documentaries about the JFK assassination and nuclear power. But he said he is almost ready to roll cameras on a new narrative film he is co-writing with David Talbot, journalist and author of The Devil’s Chessboard.
“I can’t tell you what it is,” he says. “We’ve made some drafts and we’re getting there. I hope we can get there again next year.”
Even at age 77, there are still dark corners of human history and shadowy conspiracies that Stone still needs to investigate and uncover.
